Thomas Smith born abt 1832 Sheffield to Lanarkshire Scotland

Hi, trying to find Thomas Smith who was born abt 1832 Sheffield, Son of Thomas Smith knife blade forger & Mary Smith. He moved to Lanarkshire Scotland in the 1860's and supposedly married an Agnes Morrison in Anderston Glasgow abt January 1866. I believe after much searching however there was no marriage in the legal sense, and he wasn't free possibly because of another marriage in England. He live with & supported Agnes & raised about 7 children. None of the children were written on the birth extracts as illegitimate. Whether he was a runaway from the army & Smith was an assumed name.. I not sure. He died in 1914 in Wishaw Cambusnethan Lanarkshire. Would welcome any ideas.

Hi alistrsmff,

Thanks for sharing your Smith interests.
Am I right in thinking you're now trying to trace Thomas and family's Sheffield area records? If so - it might be a good idea if we move this topic to our West Riding Yorkshire Board, and then post a full copy back to here - the other counties board - in view of Lanarkshire.

Have you tried 1841 and 1851 Sheffield Census at all yet? If not, I have a partial index of Smiths in 1841 Census Sheffield, so I'll check this later today & see if any Thomas Smith, age about 9 (lots of them I bet!) - and any Thomas Smith (Snr) with an occupation similar to "knife blade forger".
So will report back later about that, alstr.

Also check our >> Smith Project Links Cabinet >> for a wealth of searchable database sites that you might find helpful. Some of those are free access, some are free to search the indexes but require a fee for downloading full records.

Also see the Sheffield Indexers site at
http://sheff-indexers.thewholeshebang.org/index.html
Lots of new record transcriptions being added there on quite a regular basis - so be sure to keep a watch on it

Back later.
_________________
Carole, Smith Project/Smith Chat Admin
Nothing is too small to know, and nothing too big to attempt (William Van Horne)

Hi again alstr,

Please see message above first.
Here's a bit of info from Sheffield 1841 Census index.
The nearest possible for an occupation match for Thomas Snr, knife blade forger,
seems to be this.......

1841 Township Sheffield Piece HO-107-1335/3
Folio 5 - Garden Street
Name / Approx birth year / age / occupation
Smith Thomas / c1796 / 45 / blade maker / ?Yes born in county (Yorkshire)
others indexed for same address......
All surname Smith, all shown as "yes" born in Yorkshire.
Ann / 1820 / 21 / blade maker
William / 1823 / 18 / blade maker
John / 1826 / 15 / blade maker
Edwin / 1829 / 12
Martha / 1831 / 10

nb: no Mary nor other possible spouse found to match above folio - & no Thomas Jnr -
and you'll need to check original census document to confirm that. But see the following - slight possibility same family if Thomas Jnr and these other children were staying with relatives or friends that night?? (longshot!!)............

1841 Sheffield Piece HO-107-1336/7
Folio 19a - Talbot Street, Sheffield Park.
Smith Thomas / age 8 - yes born in Yorkshire
and other children named Smith -
Mary age 9, Henry age 5, Eliza age 4, Richard age 3
_____________

Next possible occupation-wise that I have is
1841 Sheffield Piece HO-107-1336/3/
Folio 25 South Street Sheffield
Smith Thomas, pen-knife cutter, age 35
and a Thomas Smith age 3 is indexed for same folio/address -
so wrong age for your Thomas Jnr. But might also be a good idea for you to check the original document for others at that household too.

Hope this might be of some help. Either way, please keep us informed alstr. Will be interesting to follow your research.

Carole

Thank you Carrole, yes looking at the english census's is a bit of a muddle, this is a major problem with the Smith name, in my instance, because he moved to Scotland but never married the woman he lived with apparently. The connection may have been made, if there had been a reference to his parents place of marriage, & therefore to his birth, & other sibblings. The 1881 to 1901 Scottish census's all suggest abt an 1832 birth, but the 1871 says abt 1837 & this tends more close to his death extract of 1914 aged 76, in Wishaw Scotland. Don't know whether the transitional period of 1837 civil registration in England could have something to do with?
It may also be that the information given by his wife so to speak, (she died in 1915), may not have been accurate, especially if there was was not contact between them. Mary may well be a 2nd or nickname of his mother. Anyway I'll have look at the census info you suggested, Thanks again Lindsay.

Hi Lindsay,

This topic now moved to here, on our West Riding Yorkshire Board & I've left a copy on the "Other Counties..." Board ...link ........
>> Thomas Smith b c1832 Sheffield to Lanarkshire Scotland(COPY) >>

Thanks for mentioning about possible discrepancy with Thomas's birth year.

I'm sure the date of the beginning of English Civil Registration would not affect the age given for him on any Census. (As you'll know - those are not always accurate anyway)
But ......
If Thomas was born any time prior to July 1837 (when England and Wales Civil registration began) - his birth would not have been registered - so won't be found in the GRO Indexes. (a baptism record will be the nearest for proof of approx date of birth). If he was born any time from July 1837 onwards - his birth should have been registered & indexed.

I'm just wondering now if you can tell us the names of Thomas's children - as given on the Scottish Census - & could these give clues to the naming pattern for himself and his own siblings?

If Thomas was born c1837 - that means that the Thomas age 3 on 1841 Census (the last one I mentioned in my last post above) could be a possibility then. I think I might have the 1851 Census index details for that same family - I will check that and if so - report back to you later Lindsay.

Carole wave

PS; Maxine is the Moderator for the West Riding Yorkshire Board & you're
now in the Forums' "Red-Usergroup" (Smiths of Lancs, WRY & Isle of Man)
And if not already, Gillian will be adding you to the "Green Usergroup" (Smiths of Other Counties Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland)
[url=http://smithchat.com/groupcp.forum?g=42][/url]
_________________
Carole, Smith Project/Smith Chat Admin
Nothing is too small to know, and nothing too big to attempt (William Van Horne)

Hi again Lindsay, please see message above first,

About this one that I mentioned previously........

Hello Carole, here's a list of Thomas & Agnes' children in order of birth.

Agnes born May 17 1872 Wishaw Lanark
Thomas Feb 15 1874 .. ..
George Aug 19 1876 .. ..
John Aug 12 1878 .. ..
Alexander Oct 6 1880 Camnethan Lanark
William Feb 9 1883 Waterloo Lanark

There was a reference in the Scottish 1871 census to a 10mo daughter called Elizabeth, but guess what, like Tom's marriage there's no record of a birth corresponding to parents of the name of Thomas & Agnes Smith within 1870. At least I can't find it! She was supposed to be born in Anderston Renfrew. This is the same as Anderston Glasgow where the marriage was supposed to be in 1866,67,69? Agnes Morrison's mother's first name was Elizabeth. Very Strange!

My line by the way is William Morrison Smith, the last Son.
Some good has come out of Old Tom's brickwall, as it led me look at a Sheffield Genealogy site where, lo & behold I found distant relies from John Smith's line. Any way there it is. Like hear any ideas. Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,

Thanks for the update and the list of Thomas Jnr's children. That might prove useful. Hmmm that's a mystery about not being able to trace a record for the birth of Elizabeth, & for Thomas & Agnes marriage - if that did occur. Could it be that the marriage and Elizabeth's birth occurred somewhere else away from the Glasgow area, I'm wondering?

That was good news about finding John Smith's line at the Sheffield site. By this I'm thinking you must mean - John, the son of Thomas Junior. And that if so, John born in Scotland did return to his father's roots - Sheffield?? (Or maybe I got this wrong?)

Will keep coming back to your topic Lindsay & let you know if we come across anything else that might help you. Maxine, moderator of this WRY Board is not around at the moment, but when she gets back, might be able to make more suggestions. In the meantime, please keep us informed Lindsay on your progress.

Carole

Thankyou Carole for your reply. Sorry I didn't clarify abt John Smith better. He lived & died in Wishaw Lanarkshire, but the folk from his line, were looking as I was into Thomas jnr & his parents Thomas & Mary on the Sheff. Records Online site. I came across them via a forum abt Thomas & his parents. As soon as I saw this, I enquired & sure enough they knew my part of the family research of William Smith's line, little brother of their John Smith. But they're at the same brickwall as I am, ironically! I am considering looking further into Agnes' mother Elizabeth. Her maiden name was... Smith.
Might be a mere coincidence, but you never know! Could be a distant relie of Toms line. Will keep in touch, regards Lindsay.

Hi Lindsay!

I have just added you to the 'Green' user group. There has been a delay for technical reasons, sorry about that! Good luck with all your searching, Gillian
_________________
''What will survive of us is love.'' Philip Larkin