Edit 17 March 2009 by Carole.... quotes inserted below from the Australia/New Zealand Board Topic..... >>Jack Smith b c1914 d.1968 possibly Sheffield >>
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29 July 2008, on Australia/New Zealand Board, robert smith wrote:

………….. in brief i am looking for info on my fathers side of the family and his children by his second marriage. his name was jack smith born circa 1914 died 27/12/1968 poss sheffield. children by second marriage - joy smith and catherine smith born circa 1960/1962. I emigrated to australia in 1962 and never returned to the uk, but still have many fond memories. I am sorry i am so vague on details but i only have a few verifiable documents left. regards robert.

30 July 2008, Gillian wrote:

Hi Robert! Have you tried this website http://www.yorkshirebmd.info/ which is a free search? It only aims to go up to 1950 but may assist in your search for the birth date. It also provides a link if you wish to apply for a copy of the birth certificate. I wonder whether you have a copy of the death certificate? Do you have a copy of your own birth certificate which should give your mother's maiden name? Good luck with your search and please let us know whether or not you make progress. Cheers Gillian

30 July 2008, robert smith wrote:

hi gillian, thanks for for the tip on the website, i will give that a go and let you know how i go. i do have a copy of my birth cert, but i was going to concentrate on my fathers side at this stage. I am not even sure of my fathers birth place so that makes it harder, i only have his death date (27/12/1968 poss Sheffield) and i have been out of touch with relatives for so long i dont know where any are to ask, so at this stage it is all a bit hit and miss, but thank you so much for your help. regards robert

31 July 2008, Don wrote:

Hi Robert, sounds like you have a challenge to solve. Don't downplay the information you can get on your father's side of the family by working through your mother's information. When and where were they married? Did they know each other as adolescents? Did she have any siblings who might be able to provide information? Are there cousins? Happy hunting J

31 July 2008, Gillian wrote:

Hi Robert Yes, I agree with Don. It is possible to learn a lot by searching 'sideways' so to speak. Coming at something from a different angle may be very revealing. It is always good to work with the facts in your hand rather than just chasing shadows, if you see what I mean. Gillian

1 Aug 2008, robert smith wrote:

thank you Don for your encouragement i just have to keep trying till i understand what i am doing so please bear with me, as i said before all this is new to me . again many thanks regards robert.

2 Aug 2008, Don wrote:

Robert, two additional thoughts. First, you indicate your father died on 27/12/1968, possibly in Sheffield. Is there an obituary in the local paper? Obituaries occasionally provide useful information. I would suggest looking at a span of about three days following his death. (I could be longer; I don't know what the practice is for posting obituaries is in England). Second, was your father in the military during the war? If so and you can get access to his service record, you will have a trove of useful data.

2 Aug 2008, robert smith wrote:

hi don thanks again, good idea on the obituary columns i will give that a go, but the military service idea i have tried and seem to come up against a brick wall, my father served in the raf as air crew but i can find no clue any ideas? also when he left the service he trained as a school teacher in cumberland uk could this be any help to me? regards robert

3 Aug 2008, robert smith wrote:

hi gillian my father was jack on MY birth certificate ,but as you said there is the chance he could have been a john or something else. so i will obtain a copy of the death certificate as you suggest and go from there. again many thanks, regards robert.

4 Aug 2008, Don wrote:

Robert, Both of my grandfathers chose to use their middle names. My paternal grandfather birth name was Walter D. Allen. He went by Dorr W. Allen and all documents indicated such. My maternal grandfather changed his name from William J. Evans to John W. Evans. Keep digging.

12 Feb 2009, Carole wrote:

Hi Robert, I was just wondering how you're going on with all this. Any success? Do you know for sure yet whether your father's family were from Sheffield area? Because if so, and if we haven't done already - I think we ought to put a copy of your message on our West Riding Yorkshire Board - where it might be picked up more readily by others researching Smiths of Sheffield area. Look forward to catching up with you Robert, and your research Carole

17th February 2009

hi carole

sorry to take so long to reply but we have been very busy the last few months trying to empty the nest, we have been successful in having two offspring married off, now only one more to go! now i can get back to chasing my family history.
in answer to you query i have had little luck in finding any info on my fathers side,but have dug up a little on my mother.I do know my father spent many years in the morley and wakefield areas of yorkshire,but he only spent his last 4 or 5 years in sheffield where he died. I do also know his father (my grandfather) died in kirton meers lincolnshire 11/3/1977.I also have a rather old(1978) solicitors letter informing me that i was a one quarter beneficiary of an estate from a mrs culiar smith who died at kirton meers on the 4/12/1969.I believe this lady to be my grandfathers wife but cannot confirm she is my fathers mother. there was always rumour that my father was illegitimate.
this is all the info i have on my fathers side, i would be happy for this to be put on any appropriate board.

regards robert
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Hi Robert!

Good to hear from you! What a busy time you have been having with two family weddings!

About your family history. Have you ever considered the possibility that your father was adopted? However, if he was legally adopted (ie through the courts) a birth certificate should still be forthcoming. If it was a private arrangement all trace could be lost. In 1914 adoption was very different to nowadays. 'Family rumour' may end up being your best bet. The fact that Mrs Culiar Smith left you a share of her estate suggests that she took some responsibility for you and perhaps you might feel that is very important.

I believe that if you make enquiries about adoption the 'hundred year rule' applies ie 100 years must have elapsed since the date of an ancestors adoption (which may not have been at birth).

This may not sound very helpful but underlines the importance of following up every fact you have. One day you may 'hit the jackpot'.

Good luck! Gillian

hi gillian
i thank you for your input and must admit the adoption angle cannot be ignored i would not have dreamed of venturing down that path, though i would not have a clue how to start, any ideas for me ?
I did omit my grandfathers name in my last post (senior moment i'm afraid) anyway it was Charles Edward Smith.
once again thank you for your help,
regards robert

Robert, I think you need to 'rack your brains'!!

You obviously recall a suggestion that your father was illegitimate. Take that a step or two further.........Was there ever a suggestion of where/who he came from? Did anyone show a particular interest in him without apparent reason? Did he resemble anyone that he should not have resembled if he was legitimate? Do you remember clips of conversations which aroused your curiosity but meant little at the time?

You now need to become a detective and start to imagine who might have been his parents! Look at other family members who weren't married, including people from other areas. Does this help at all? A lot of family history research is starting with a 'hunch', exploring it and not being afraid to draw a blank/hit a brickwall. Then you just follow another 'hunch' untill, eventually, you find the answer! It isn't easy but it can be fascinating.

Keep at it, Gillian

Hi Robert & Gillian,

This copy topic now created here on the WRY Board from the original one -
Australia/New Zealand Board >>Jack Smith b c1914 d.1968 possibly Sheffield >> .

Robert, hopefully, others researching Smiths of the Sheffield area might just be more likely to pick up on it here. I note that Gillian and Don have both given you some good suggestions on this thread. Also noticed that you wrote........

Quote:

my father served in the raf as air crew but i can find no clue any ideas? also when he left the service he trained as a school teacher in cumberland uk could this be any help to me?

It might very well be possible to trace teachers' records through the Cumbria Education Department's archives. I'll see if I can find out about where those records, if any, are held. What dates would it be? About late 1940s? Also, my dad recently sent for his own Royal Air Force records (served late 1940s - but after WW2) - so I'll ask him about that.

Talk again soon
Carole

hi carole
thank you so much for going to all this trouble i am so grateful to you for doing that.
in answer to your questions on my father, he is shown on my birth certificate as being a trainee school teacher,that was in 1949, i believe he was demobbed straight after the war so that would make the timescale 1945 till approx 1951 when we moved to yorkshire so he could take up his teaching position.
regarding all the other info and advice given to me by don and gillian i followed up by looking on my mothers side of the family and now have gone back to my maternal great grandfather but have still to confirm the links by certs. as soon as the finances are back on track i will obtain those certs, which i am told will give me a mine of information.
once again thanks to all involved regards robert.

Hi Robert,

You're very welcome, we aim to help our members, if we can, your Smith interests are valued Also - I'm especially interested in any Smiths of West Riding of Yorkshire in view of the "Smith Project" . Which reminds me - I forgot to mention the other day... You're now in >>the Red Usergroup>> and also in >> the Special Permissions Group>>

My dad said that your dad Jack's rank in the RAF, as an Air Crew Member would have been at least "Sergeant". He will give me the address, tomorrow, to which he wrote for his own Service records (although of course, in his case, he was able to give them his date and place of enlistment, his exact date of birth, and home address at the time). The reply letter that my dad received from them, enclosed copies of 2 large original documents - with the enlistment information and a brief record of service. The letter says that most of his "other documents" are no longer available - something about already having been destroyed in accordance with MOD regulations (I suppose this is "Ministry of Defence").

Anyway, will get back to you in a day or so about it Robert.

Were you living in Cumberland during the time of your dad's teacher's training? before you moved to Yorkshire? Whereabouts were you born? if you don't mind me asking.

Chat over the weekend.

Carole

Hi Carole

Thanks again, looking forward to your reply.

I was born in Cumberland and moved to Yorkshire at the
age of 2 or 3.

By the way, my good lady has seen a picture of the little
kitten on your profile and wants to know if you have a spare
one as we lost our best mate (Tiger) of 10 yrs about 4 weeks ago to a snake bite, and we miss him terribly.

Regards

Robert

Hi Robert,

That's very sad news about Tiger, your cat. I know that "missing you" feeling only too well. I've posted a copy of the kitten and ducklings image, and some more new Cat Avatars in our "Pet Lovers Corner" - here's a quick link to the topic >> Cats & Kittens Avatars >> :
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RAF records
My dad and I put our heads together!!

Veterans UK Website - Info about Service Records pages...
(a link to that site also now added to "Category J)
Military records & War Memorials" in our Links Cabinet)

Page at the above site about....
Service records for Royal Air Force Officers and Airmen
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/raf.html
confirms the following about service records for Officers that served after 1922
and Airmen that served after 1924.....

These dates are retained by the Royal Air Force...

Quote:

by Service Number, Rank and Full Name, and will also contain the Date of Birth. It is important that as much of this information as possible is provided to assist in locating the correct record...

The page includes some pdf files downloads / forms to print-out (I suppose?) for completion. The contact address given on that page is for......
RAF Cranwell, Sleaford, Lincolnshire.

That address (presumably just for Officers & Airmen records) is a different address than the one on my dad's letter, which enclosed the copies of his records - but for info -it's..........
Personnel Management Agency,
Royal Air Force, Innsworth, Gloucester GL3 1EZ

Another query, Robert - if you don't mind me asking -
Was your mother born in Yorkshire? or Cumberland? or elsewhere.
Where were they married?

Hope you're having a nice weekend!!
Carole.

hi carole
once again thanks for all the information , I will check it all out and let you know how i go. it may be a couple of days as work has me rather busy for a while so i must pay the australian tax man.
re my mother yes she was born in yorkshire, wakefield in fact maiden name of hobdey, but i have no idea where they were married.
By the way i remember my father taking me on a trip to sleaford in lincolnshire when i was very young,dont ask me how i remember that it was just one of those times that stuck in my mind,could there have been a raf base there in the late 1950s? he also took me to meet my grandfather for the one and only time on that trip, and i remember his farm in kirton meers as if it was yesterday but i cant remember his face, so sad isn't it?
anyway thanks again regards robert.

Hola Robert I have just had a thought!

Mrs Culiar Smith:- Say she WAS your father's mother but he was born BEFORE SHE MARRIED YOUR GRANDFATHER? Then your father's birth would have been registered with her maiden name, or if she was married to someone else at the time with that surname. This might be worth exploring.

Gillian

Hola Gillian and Robert,

Robert, I've been doing some bmd searches, so checked to see if I could find any possibilities for the birth of Jack Smith, your father. And what Gillian suggested, would definitely fit in with this.. but see what you think......

I'm believing that Kirton Meers, Lincolnshire is at Kirton Lindsey??........
"Kirton in Lindsey - both a village and parish in the north of Lincolnshire. The parish lies south of Scunthorpe.....The parish was in the Brigg sub-district of the Glanford Brigg Registration District" Genuki Lincolnshire

I have copies of the GRO index images that include the following - so if you want to see them for yourself, I'll upload the scans.

Births Indexes December Qu 1913
This entry is handwritten at the end of the list on that page
("see S40" = means - a late registration, registered in September 1940)
Smith Jack mother's maiden name:Gorbutt.
Reg District: Scunthorpe Vol:7a "see S 40"

An original registration, printed on the same page, Dec Qu 1913.....
Gorbutt Jack mother's maiden name:Gorbutt.
Reg Dist: Glanford B. Vol/page ref: 7a 1271

So - ?? this Jack was born before his parents marriage & originally under his mother's maiden name Gorbutt. Could be that - in 1940, when joining the RAF or at marriage?, Jack needed proof of his name as Jack Smith, and so he re-registered his birth himself at that time, so that could provide a certificate?

Possible entry for this Jack's parents' marriage, a year later -
but Charles A. not Charles E....?
Marriages December Qu 1914
Smith Charles A. & Gorbutt Evelyn.
Reg District: Glanford B. Vol/page ref: 7a 1643

Some or all of the following - ?? possible siblings of Jack, children of Charles & Evelyn
(from freebmd so original scans would need checking) Do any of these names ring bells?
Births
Jun 1915 Smith Dorothy - MMN Gorbutt Glanford 7a 1249
Dec 1920 Smith Charles H - MMN Gorbutt Glanford B. 7a 1275
Jun 1921 Smith Vera - MMN Gorbutt Grimsby 7a 1220
Sep 1925 Smith Peggy - MMN Gorbutt Glanford B. 7a 1139

See you later
Carole

ps: came back to add......... forgot to mention - for Sheffield area Jack Smith births that could fit in with a Charles Smith marriage - the only one as far as I can make out is a birth for Jack in 1916, Wakefield Registration District, mother Margaret Marshall. Let me know if you want more information about this.

Wow!!

Are we making progress Robert??

Gillian

double wow!!
what amazing detective work carole, i dont want to dismiss this information lightly, but i do follow your assumptions,however i think i mentioned i have a solicitors letter pertaining to the death of my father and subsequent deaths of mrs culiar smith and charles edward smith.The letter does mention that jack smith was the only son of charles edward smith so any other siblings by that marriage seem unlikely, that is not to say there are not any half brothers or sisters.I also checked to see if the solicitors were still in business but to no avail. I seem to remember my paternal grandmothers first initial as being E, but i think is stood for elsie, and she lived in wrenthorpe near wakefield.
once again thanks for you efforts they are apreciated.
regards robert

Hi Robert,

Yes I knew it was a long-shot - but thought worth mentioning - & no don't dismiss it just yet. Will be better when have details from Jack's marriage certificate and/or his or his father's death certificate.

other notes - you wrote:

....his father (my grandfather) died in kirton meers lincolnshire 11/3/1977.I also have a rather old(1978) solicitors letter informing me that i was a one quarter beneficiary of an estate from a mrs culiar smith who died at kirton meers on the 4/12/1969

Did you know that North Lincolnshire BMD indexes are online here..........
>> North Lincolnshire BMDs >>
(I don't know if all old N.Lincs Reg Districts are included there yet though??)

You can only search 1 year at a time. The only death registration indexed there
for 1977 for a Charles Smith is........
Charles, First initial M; Register number B5B; Entry number 292
But there is the following in 1978 deaths.....
Charles, First initial E; Register number A5B; Entry number 203

Can't see a Culiar Smith death for 1969 or 1970 - although there are quite a number of other Smiths in those years. Culiar is an unusual name though, isn't it. Could it be short for anything I wonder? You can search for all Smiths in one year - just leave the first name field blank. You might also find contact details at that site for writing to the North Lincs Registrars.

Carole

PS: Same sort of database for Sheffield Reg District...
Sheffield City Council >> Index of Births, Marriages and Deaths >>

If you or anyone else knows of other online Lincolnshire Genealogy databases, grateful if they could be added to >>Links for EAST MIDLANDS COUNTIES Research >> (Derbyshire, Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire & Rutland)

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PPS - your "cat knitting" avatar looks good
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