SMITH Frederick Ernest. b:between 1875-1886 but where?

This thread has been split from Karin's Introductions Topic:
Welcome Karin!! Carole, Admin
____________________________________________________________

Dear Carole, Maxine Mattycat and Chellin,

Thank you for the kind words of welcome to the Smith project, I do appreciate your kindness.

As you know I am from SA, I have been doing research on my grandfather Frederick Ernest Smith for eleven years.
He was a soldier in the Boer War 1899-1901. He met my grandmother during the war years and they got married in 1911.
I have appointed a researcher at the then PRO to see if we could find his attestation forms. He did find a Frederick Ernest Smith who'm I believed to be my grandfather. After putting a wonderful tree together I discoverd that this man died in 1904. My search startet all over, we don't know much about him, only his name, the names of his parents, Alfred and Annie and that he had two brothers, one called Albert.
My grandfather was born in the UK but I have no idea where or when.
I am looking at the years 1875-1886.

I will talk to you again, the weather is quite bad at the moment - I need to sign off for the moment.

Until next time,

Karin.

mattycat wrote:

Hi Karin,

I have searched all the UK with the information above. All I have found so far is a Frederick John Smith baptised 7.12.1884 at St. Luke Woodside Croydon Surrey, his parents were Alfred and Mary Ann Smith.

Then I searched (you may already have done it) IGI and came up with a family whose parents were Alfred Smith and Anne Albury.

Frederick J Smith bapt. 1876 Farnham Sussex

Annie Smith bapt. 1877 Selburn Hampshire

William Henry Smith bapt. 1885 Lodsworth Sussex

Alfred Smith bapt 1876 Kinsley Hampshire.

this is down as all one family although I know two baptism dates are the same year and different places .. could be a transciption error?

The parents of this family were married September 1876 in Farnham and Alfred born 1849.

familysearch is where I found the last information .. just click on the text link.

mattycat

Hi mattycat.

Thank you for the e-mail received, I really appreciate your kindness in trying to help.
I will have a look at familysearch and trust that I will be able to find the man I am looking for.
I have been down so many roads - even had a DNA test done but no match yet!

Just to tell you a little bit about myself.
I was born and raised in beautiful South Africa, we live in the North West province 110 km from Johannesburg to the west.
I am a female and my birth date is the 12th of April.
I love doing research on my own family and my husband's. My interests are scrapbooking and quilting.

Hopefully I will find my five cent coin on the oceon floor, will just keep on searching.

Have a lovely day/evening,

From SA,

Karin.

Hi mattycat,

I have just read you letter, that is all I have on my grandfather - I can mention that he served in the Anglo Boer War in 1889/1902.
He must have gone back to the UK and came back to marry my grandmother in 1911. He met her during the war in Heilbron in the Free State.
Although we did find a Frederick Ernest Smith serving in the Boer War at KEW, but he died in 1904.
I would think that only one name was written on Frederick's attenstation forms. There were many Frederick Smiths serving in the Anglo Boer War but to find the regiment that he joined is very difficult.

Until next time,

Karin.

Subject: Frederick E Smith Mon 9 Apr 2007 - 10:52

mattycat wrote:

Hi Karin,

Thanks for the reply , I know what it's like to search for Smiths's I was called Smith before I married, my Grandparents died before I was born but I know where they lived at least.. even so I have come to a brick wall with my Great Great Grand Parents a Smith marrying a Smith!

I live in Lancashire as you may have guessed, like you I have found loads of my husbands side. So anything we can help with we will.

Look forward to talking to you soon

mattycat

Karin, have a look at our links cabinet in there are lots of web sites you can search .. some free .. some not. It will be easier once you know what part of the UK your Grandfather came from.

linkscabinet

mattycat

mattycat wrote:

Karin,

I have searched the IGI for Frederick Ernest Smith and come up with 3 although I don't think they are yours as the parents are not the same.. but you may as well have the information.

Frederic Ernest Smith Bapt. 2.2.1879 at Wellingborough Northampton .. parents Joseph & Eliza Smith.

Frederick Ernest Smith.. born 1883 at Bunwell Norfolk .. died 11.1.1904 .. is this the one you have?

Frederick Ernest Smith Bapt. 8.2.1885 at Baldock Hetford.. parents George & Elizabeth Smith.

All for now

mattycat

chellin2 wrote:

Hi Karen

Glad to see that Mattycat is trying to help you and I know what you are going through, I live in Perth Western Australia and its very difficult when you are not in the UK to search.
I have come to a halt with my Smiths too, Ive got back to 1813 but I found out they were Gypsys/Travellers and there is no sign of them once all the census have stopped.

I do hope you have some luck, keep us informed please, we will help you all we can

Chellin

Hi Chellin,

Thank you for the kind e-mail received, I do appreciate it.
I think all the Smith's know what we are talking about!!

I had DNA test done, no match yet. I have been down each and every avenue that one can think. I will keep on holding to the promise - they who seek will find.

Have a lovely day,

From SA,

Karin.

Carole wrote:

Hello Karin,

Really glad to see you here and thank you for giving such a lovely introduction about yourself and your interests.

How very frustrating that must have been for you - when you discovered that the Frederick you had believed to be yours - wasn't the correct one after all. You'd been "barking up the wrong family tree", as they say!!

I see that mattycat has already been trying to help with some look-ups.

Now split yours, mattycat's & chellin's last messages from the
"Welcome" topic (as above) & moved here to the "Other UK - Smith & Related" Board.

It looks as though you might have to eliminate all Frederick Smiths county by county until you find the right one. Yes - it will be a long job - but no - never give up.

I'm just now exploring any data/information that I might have for any Frederick Smiths born during the period you mention & will write here again later.

In the meantime........
my first thoughts were - service records from the Boer War. You've already explored this avenue

Also - I'm understanding that Frederick was married in South Africa, is that right? Is there a marriage certificate & if so, does this give his father Alfred's occupation?..............

...........Hi again Karin,

I realise that your Frederick might not have been born until after 1881, but I have some index copies of 1881 Census Data - taken from the LDS transcriptions, for Freds/Fredericks born between 1876 to 1881, & 7 of these have parents names that match your great-grandparents.

You may already have explored these - but if not, & you think any of these might be possibilities - please tell me & I'll post any other data I have for these...........

from LDS 1881 transcriptions, wrote:

1881 Census Place Godalming, Surrey
Frederick J. SMITH 5 b: Farnham, Surrey (birth c1876)
Parents: Alfred (Farm Carter) & Ann SMITH
Sibling: Alfred age 1.

1881 Census Place Kingston-upon-Hull, Yorkshire
Fred SMITH 5 b. Hull, York (birth c1876)
Parents: Alfred (Stevedore?) & Ann SMITH
Siblings: George A. 12; John H. 10; Marian 7: Charles 4; Emma 2.

1881 Census Place Reydon, Suffolk
Frederic SMITH 3 b.Reydon, Suffolk (birth c1877-78)
Parents: Alfred (Agricultural Labourer) & Anna SMITH
Siblings: Alfred 10; Esther 8; Eliza 6;

(nb: birth in Reydon should have been registered in Blything District)

possibles for this Frederic in Births Indexes are as follows, & due to
these middle names - can possibly be eliminated from your search?)
June Qu 1877: SMITH Frederick Herbert, Blything 4a 752
Sept Qu 1877: SMITH Frederick Charles, Blything 4a 713
March Q 1878: SMITH Frederick George, Blything 4a 743

1881 Census Place Wombwell, Yorkshire
Fred SMITH 3 b. Wombwell, York (birth c1877-78)
Parents: Alfred (Joiner) & Hannah SMITH
Siblings: Laura E. 12; Rose 10; Joseph Ed. 9.

[nb: birth in Wombwell should have been registered in Barnsley District, WRYorks]

1881 Census Place Luton, Bedfordshire
Fred SMITH 2 b. Luton, Beds. (birth c1879)
Parents: Alfred (Painter) & Hannah SMITH
no siblings

1881 Census Place Wolstanton, Staffordshire
Frederick SMITH 2 b. Wolstanton, Staffs. (birth c1879)
Parents: Alfred (Coal Miner) & Hannah SMITH
Sibling: Samuel age 3

1881 Census Place London, Middlesex
Frederick J. SMITH 2 b. Hackney, Middlesex (birth c1879)
Parents: Alfred (Baker) & Mary Ann SMITH
Sibling: Alfred W. age 8

PS: Karin - Have you done any searches of the 1891 & 1901 Census, I'm wondering? Carole :ck-smile:

mattycat wrote:

Hi Karin,
I have just searched the IGI for a marriage of Annie .. you thought maybe she was Stone.. I have not come up with anything from 1870 -- to --1880 in the British Isles. Lots of Annie's but not marrying Alfred Smith. ... back to the drawing board! Laughing

mattycat

Carole wrote:

Just noticed that the IGI data that mattycat found for the following might match one of the 1881 Census returns....... (though some confusion - Surrey or Sussex? "Surrey" shown as birth place on 1881 Census could be an error)

mattycat wrote:

.... a family whose parents were Alfred Smith and Anne Albury.

Frederick J Smith bapt. 1876 Farnham Sussex
Annie Smith bapt. 1877 Selburn Hampshire
William Henry Smith bapt. 1885 Lodsworth Sussex
Alfred Smith bapt 1876 Kinsley Hampshire.

Carole wrote:

1881 Census Place Godalming, Surrey
Frederick J. SMITH 5 b: Farnham, Surrey (birth c1876)
Parents: Alfred (Farm Carter) & Ann SMITH
Sibling: Alfred age 1.

So in both cases - shown as middle initial J. so probably not a transcription error & possibly can be eliminated?? But might be worth checking the GRO Births indexes, just in case?

Dear Carole and Mattycat,
Thank you once again for all the information received.
I think your idea of searching and eliminating country by country could work. I know it is a lot of work and unfortunatly I don't have the means to do it.

The researcher at the archives in KEW only checked for Frederick Ernest Smith and he came up with the man from Bunwell.
One question that we have been asking ourselves is why did Frederick only marry my grandmother in 1911 almost ten years after the war.
Was he married, or was it difficult for him to come back to SA?
When I look at all the Frederick Smith's, I want to run away.
Not that I am planning to do that - I have been searching for to long and it has become so costly!!
To eliminate the man from Bunwell, I made use of a Professional Graphologist to compare the signitures.

Well, I am going to say goodbye for the moment,

Enjoy the rest of the day,

Karin.

Carole wrote:

You probably know that there are still gaps in the data at freebmd, but I see that from births data already included for the years 1875 to 1886, there are 32 births registered in the name of Frederick Ernest Smith

1875
Jun Qu : x 1 : St. Olave 1d 309; Sep Qu : x 1 : Blything 4a 729
Dec Qu : x 2 : W. Bromwich 6b 754; & Morpeth 10b 339

1876
Mar Qu: x 3 : Marylebone 1a 567; Wandsworth 1d 676; & Yeovil 5c 505
Jun Qu: x 2 : W. Ham 4a 123, & Greenwich 1d 952
Sep Qu: x 2 : Wincanton 5c 457 & Islington 1b 299
Dec Qu: x 1 : Ipswich 4a 6_0

1877
Sep Qu: Sudbury 4a 496 ; Dec Qu: x 1 : Derby 7b 496

1878
Mar Qu: x 1 : Burton 6b 342; Dec Qu: x 1: Wellingbro' 3b 155

1879
Mar Qu: x 1: Thanet 2a 899; Dec Qu: x 1: Sculcoates 9d 192

1880
Sep Qu: x 1: (Fred Ernest) Woodbridge (Suffolk) 4a 733

1881
Jun Qu: x 1: Kensington 1a 157; Dec Qu: x 1: Portsea 2b 54_

1882
Mar Qu: x 1: Depwade 4b 256

1883 :
Jun Qu: x 1: Edmonton 3a 348;
Sep Qu: x 1: Wokingham 2c 385; Dec Qu: x 1: Henley 3a 690

1884
Jun Qu: x 2: Samford 4a 735; & Banbury 3a 884
Sep Qu: x 2 : Camberwell 1d 831, & Hitchin 3a 457
Dec Qu: x 1 : Islington 1b 245

1885
Jun Qu: x 1 : Ware 3a 593; Dec Qu: x 1 : W. Ham 4a 202

1886
Jun : x 1 : Barton R. 6a 87
Dec 1886 : x 1 : Islington 1b 239
__________________________________________________

Its very possible that many of these died in infancy as happened to many at that time as you know. So could be worth checking the Deaths Index too - to eliminate some of these.

mattycat wrote:

It may sound like a daft question after all your research ... but do you know when your Grandfather died? have you access to a death certificate as it could give his age and then narrow down the year/s of birth.

Or do you know where he was burried (SA) is there any information to go on there?

Also there must be a way of finding out about when and where he enlisted to fight in the Boer War .. I don't know about this ... but any members/ guests .. Help!!!.....................

Karin, I have found this link
http://www.casus-belli.co.uk/index.asp?PageId=116
I don't know whether there is anyting on it that may give you information about your Grandfather ... but it's always worth looking at.

This next link is from Maxine

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23&j=1#1 (National Archives)

Carole wrote:

Hi again Karin,
apart from what mattycat has written about finding more info from death, burial or servicemen's records in an effort to narrow down the possible date range of birth.............

below are suggestions for families that you might want to gradually look at. If it were my own research - I would start checking out these families in these Districts on the Census 1881, 1891, 1901 to see if any also have sibling Albert. Do you know whether Albert was younger or older than Frederick?

For Registration Districts listed already
for Frederick Ernest Smith births 1875-1887:

Marriages found for possible correct dates in those Districts:
for the parents: Alfred Smith with possible Spouse match to Ann/Annie

from BMD info, I wrote:

Marriage Jun 1870 Smith Alfred Sculcoates 9d 262
(to Hetherington Annie or Simpson Sarah Ann)
[possible son Birth 1879 Dec Qu Sculcoates Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Dec 1870 SMITH Alfred Albert W.Ham 4a 14
(to Gould, Ann Elizabeth or McGregor, Isabella Jane)
[possible son Birth 1876 Jun Qu W.Ham Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Sep Qu 1872 Smith Alfred W. Bromwich 6b 1082
(to Spencer, Annie Maria B or Wilkes, Martha)
[possible son Birth 1875 Dec Qu W. Bromwich Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Sep 1874 Smith Alfred Islington 1b 315
(to Biddle, Anna Maria G or ?)
[possible son Birth 1876 Sep Qu Islington Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Sep 1874 Smith Alfred Burton 6b 492
(to Johnson, Anne or Batkin, Eliza)
[possible son Birth 1878 Mar Qu Burton Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Jun 1875 Smith Alfred Camberwell 1d 944
(to Coe, Ann or Gibson, Caroline)
[possible son Birth 1884 Sep Qu Camberwell Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Mar 1876 Smith Alfred Ipswich 4a 776
(to Dooel, Ann or Brown, Sarah Ann)
[possible son Birth 1876 Dec Qu Ipswich Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Sep Qu 1876 Smith Alfred Marylebone 1a 1043
(to Tamplin, Annie or ?)
[possible son Birth 1876 Mar Qu Marylebone Frederick Ernest]

Marriage Sep 1878 SMITH Alfred James Woodbridge 4a 946
(to Boughton, Ann or Cowie, Emma)
[possible son Birth Sep Qu 1880 Woodbridge (Suffolk) Fred Ernest]

Marriage Dec 1881 SMITH Alfred William Kensington 1a 171
(to Green, Annie or Hughes, Evangeline Lockhart)
[possible son Birth 1881 Jun Qu Kensington Frederick Ernest - if birth before marriage]

Marriage Mar 1883 SMITH Alfred Islington 1b 484
(to Parry, Anne Mary or Taylor, Rachel Louisa)
[possible son Birth 1884 Dec Qu Islington Frederick Ernest]
[possible son Birth 1886 Dec Qu Islington Frederick Ernest]

Keep thinking positive!! It could be worse - your grandad could have been named William, James or John!! :ck-grin: One of our other members is looking for her William H. Smith's birth "somewhere in the UK"

...........mattycat mentioned that you thought Annie's maiden name might have been Stone. So what about this marriage?..............

1873 March Quarter - Bromley District. Ref 2a 396
Smith Alfred John
spouse - could have been either -
STONE Annie; GREGORY Sarah Ann; or BROWN Matilda
Perhaps check Bromley District in the Census?
Bromley is in Kent.

mattycat wrote:

Karin,
Have you looked at our links cabinet? it's worth looking as there are
lots of sites where you may find something to help. >> Smith Project Links Cabinet >>
mattycat

Dear Carole, Mattycat, Maxine and Chellin,

THE PERFUME OF YOUR KINDNESS TRAVELS EVEN AGAINST THE WIND! Thank you.

I am so overwhelmed with all the information received, I don't know what to say.

To start with what I have, nothing of this has been confirmed - I have no definite proof of the information.
I need to mention that my grandmother spoke High Dutch and he was from England. Emagine the communication between them. I believe that there could have been many misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
According to my cousin, she is ten years older than me -
1) Annie's father was a baker?
2) Annie could have been Annie Stone.
3) When my grandmother's appartment was burgeld while she was dying in 1963 - Frederick's family Bible was stolen as well. Names written in the Bible was McGregor, McPhearson, Black, Stone and Smith.
4) Mention was made that Frederick's family could have been from Wales or on the outskirts of Wales.

My grandmother was 14 years old when she met my grandfather during the Boer War. They got married in 1911 in SA.
Only the names of the bride and groom are given, no name or occupation of Frederick's father.
On my grandfather's Death Notice it says that both his parents are dead - 1917.
I have found his Death Notice at the archives in Pretoria after I started my search for Frederick again about three years ago.
According to his death notice he was 30 years and 23 days old when he died.
That would make his date of birth Sept 1886. We have only one picture of Frederick before leaving for War in 1916 and he look a bit older that 29 years. That is why I am looking at the years 1878-1886.
I had a look at Ancestry.com and have found the following:

1)
England and Wales Free BMD
Frederick Smith
Year of birth: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Pancras
County of Middlesex
Vol: 1b
Page: 105

2)
Frederick Ernest Smith
Year of Registration 1886
Quarter of Resg Oct-Nov-Dec.
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London Middlesex
Vol: lb
Page 139

3)
1891 Census
Frederick Smith
Age: 13
Registration District: Wycombe
Father: ALFRED
Mother:ANNE
Brother: ALBERT/BERT
Brother: John
Where born: Princes Risborough, Buchinghamshire, England.
Anne, was born ca 1855, wife of Alfred Princes Risborogh, Buckingham, Res dist. Wycombe.
Anne died at the age of 35 in 1889 in Buchinghamshire, Oxford.
I have received information on this man that I will forward to you.

4)1891 Census
Frederick Smith
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: 1886
Father: ALFRED
Mother: ANN
Brother: Herbert/BERT
Where born: Ipswich, Suffolk, England
Civil parish: St Margaret.

I am Afrikaans speaking - trying my utmost best with the English.

Looking forward hearing from you,

Enjoy a lovely day,

Karin.

mattycat wrote:

Thank you Karin for the update,

This is not going to be easy but you have given us some more information about the age of your Grandfather at his death (that was young) , no wonder you don't know much about him with your Grandparents language problem .. that must have been love, what a lovely story.

I wouldn't have guessed about your problem with your English we can understand you fully. Keep intouch and do look at the links cabinet as there could be a site where you can search.

Take care mattycat

chellin2 wrote:

Good Luck Karin

I have an Aunt in the UK who is Africaan, her name is Sybil and her maiden name was Van Amsterdam, she married my fathers brother. She is one of my favourite Aunties.

Speak soon and take care

Chellin

Carole wrote:

Hiya Karin, mattycat & chellin,
Karin.................... Its interesting & we'll keep helping as much as we can. The Anglo-Boer War Database Website that mattycat told you about yesterday is interesting, isn't it? Thanks mattycat. I'll add this to our Links Cabinet soon.......
Link: The Register of the Second Anglo-BoerWar 1899-1902

At present I'm still not clear as to whether that Database is of those Servicemen who died or whether it also includes all those who survived the War? You can register and search for free. But it appears that there is a fee payable to download any records.

You probably have already explored that site, Karin? But anyway - for the record - I discovered 3 servicemen named F.E. Smith indexed as follows.........

Surname Initials Rank Number Unit Information

Smith FE Trooper 35699 Imperial Yeomanry MR(medal roll)
Smith FE Private 75 Queensland Mounted Infantry MR(medal roll)
Smith FE Sergeant Royal Army Medical Corps L(reference)

That's all you can get from the index - but it seems you can pay to download the records..................
Have a great day!! wave

Hi Mattycat,

Thank you, I will do so - I am having problems with my computer. I am not sure if it's on the phoneline need to have it checked.
I trust that you have received the previous mail? - fairly long.

Talk to you soon,

Karin.

3-star-status Member Posts: 3409 Joined: 2006-11-09

Hi Karin,

Yes we have received it and read it .. replies above.. as yet we are dijesting it all Laughing

but we will all keep searching with you.

Talk later

mattycat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smith, Nuttall, Ingham,McDermott and more

so near and yet so far

Hi Mattycat, Carole, Chellin and Maxine,

Thank you, you are a blessing in my life! I am also trying to digest the information received. It is so overwhelming.

Enjoy the day,

Regards from SA,

Karin

Hi Mattycat,

May I please ask for your help regarding the following search on the census return I have received this information from Carole.

So what about this marriage?
From the BMD info:
1873 March Quater - Bromley District. Ref 21 396
Smith Alfred John
Spouse - could have been either -
STONE Annie; Gregory Sarah Ann;or Brown Matilda
Check Bromley District in the Census?

Please will you have a look - I am sorry but I don't have any census return CDs.

Once again thank you and have a wonderful day,

Karin.

3-star-status Member Posts: 3409 Joined: 2006-11-09

Hi Karin,

The only census that I have access to is the 1881, I have searched for Alfred in Bromley Kent and not found anything .. but try the link below and you can search for any relatives in 1881 on that so it's useful and free! we like that Laughing

familysearch

mattycat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smith, Nuttall, Ingham,McDermott and more

so near and yet so far

3-star-status Member Posts: 3409 Joined: 2006-11-09

Hi Karin,

I have searched on familysearch.org (Mormon site) and found this on Annie Stone & Alfred Smith

Marriage 30th March 1873 at Bromley, Kent, England

Annie Stone age 25 her father .. John Stone

Alfred John Smith 21 his father Thomas Smith

If you click the link below it should take you to it, type in the information above and batch number is M147543.

mattycat

familysearch

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smith, Nuttall, Ingham,McDermott and more

so near and yet so far

3-star-status Member Posts: 3409 Joined: 2006-11-09

Karin,

This is a link to the one-line parish clerks records for Kent.. I had a look but couldn't find anything for Bromley .. but you may wish to have a look.. again this is free!

kent-opc

mattycat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smith, Nuttall, Ingham,McDermott and more

so near and yet so far

That's great Karin, isn't it?
mattycat discovered the IGI Data for the Alfred John Smith marriage in Bromley & confirmed it was definitely to Annie Stone!!

If we can find anything on the Census that confirms likelihood that these are your great-grandparents - you could apply to either the Local Registry Office in Kent or the GRO at Southport for a copy of the marriage certificate.

But anyway - first things first - need to find them in the Census. Will come back to this in a day or so Karin.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carole, Smith Project/Smith Chat Admin
Nothing is too small to know, and nothing too big to attempt (William Van Horne)

3-star-status Member Posts: 3409 Joined: 2006-11-09

Karin,

When you do get round to sending for a certificate you can do it on line. The cost for us in the UK is/was £7.00 sterling.

But like Carole says .. find them on a census.

mattycat

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Smith, Nuttall, Ingham,McDermott and more

so near and yet so far